Based on my personal experiences during the past couple of decades on the Internet (I sent my first email in 1985), the talk of smart grids with appliances and generators exchanging two way communications with "the grid" scares me. Being on the Internet is a lot of fun and hugely informative - as long as you have taken the proper precautions and as long as downtime is not fatal. The risk of infection or lack of access is low enough to make it worth taking in order to allow connection and communications.
I cannot make the same statement about electricity. I cannot see any real advantage to being tightly connected. I do not have to be connected to anyone in order to use electricity if I have a generator or a battery. My car's systems work great on electricity without any connectivity to any other object; so did my submarine's power systems. If I have a generator AND a battery, the backup provided by tight connections to others is worth even less if the battery lasts long enough to get the generator running again.
I am not the only one for whom tightly integrated, wide spread "smart" grids is a matter of concern. Nick Rosen, the author of How To Live Off-Grid: Journeys Outside the System, gave a talk on October 22, 2009 at an event sponsored by Mondo Energy titled: The Truth About Nuclear Energy.
Rosen has been an anti-nuclear activist for his whole life, starting off with participation as a child alongside his parents in protests against the Bomb. Later, he transitioned that active opposition to nuclear weapons to active opposition to the construction of nuclear power plants; people who know him might have been surprised by his participation at the event.
However, Rosen resisted nuclear power plant construction not because he did not understand that producing power was different from producing weapons, but because he thought that the plants being built were simply too large, too centralized, and too scary. (His comment is that any mistake would be a big mistake. Of course, we know from experience at Three Mile Island that the health consequences of even an extensive failure at a nuclear plant can be minimized, but we also know that the financial consequences are just what Rosen predicted - BIG.)
In recent years, however, Rosen has started to think about the possibilities of building smaller nuclear plants for those people who do not want to be completely connected to everyone else. He sees community sized plants as something entirely different from the large, central station plants that he resisted. In comparison to most anti-nuclear activists, Rosen had an advantage in making that kind of leap in his thinking. His father, though a protester against the development of the British bomb program, was a nuclear physicist who helped him understand the concept and the attraction of making reliable power from tiny amounts of material.
I like imagining how the world would be different if there were nuclear fission energy systems available in as wide a size variety as the combustion systems available today. (Note: I actually like humanity and do not immediately believe that they would turn useful tools into deadly weapons. I never worry that my local hardware store has a whole row of axes, wondering if one of my neighbors will buy one and use it while going on a rampage.)
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RodAdams said:
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Sun, 2010-01-24 08:27 — RodAdamsStephenGloor said:
It makes perfect sense to me however you were originally talking about interconnectors which only apply to the wholesale market. The smart grid is primarily a wholesale market thing and yes the consumer will know no difference where the energy is coming from and neither should they.
However your original statement was:
"The difference with electricity is that it does not gain any value by being shared. There is no advantage to electricity that is generated hundreds of miles away compared to electricity generated within just a few feet."
However to the electrical wholesaler electricity from afar does gain value as they are the ones buying the generated power from the generators and distributing it to consumers and trying to make some money in the process.
Changing now to the consumer point of view when you where originally talking about a wholesale smart grid is simply an evasion from answering the question that you where posed.
However I am sure that I will only get more evasions and quibbles if I pursue the question any further so I am giving up. I think we have taken this about as far as I am sure either one of us want to go.
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Sun, 2010-01-24 08:01 — StephenGloorRodAdams said:
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Sat, 2010-01-23 23:34 — RodAdamsStephenGloor said:
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Sat, 2010-01-23 20:20 — StephenGloorStephenGloor said:
Not sure how you have managed to do it however you have managed to squeeze two contradictory statements into this response to add to the other one.
One the one had you declare that electricity does not gain value from the nodes is passes thorough and then you say people make money from moving electricity. Do you read what you post or are you just in the habit of insulting peaple's intelligence??
If people make money from shunting electricity from one area to another THEN IT HAS VALUE!!!! The value changes by the time of the day as one area with differnt peak times can supply another area that needs it and gain value from the transaction. Unless you are talking about another type of value.
Electricity is a product whose value changes by the time of the day. Even in the Stepford Wives sort of scenerio you seem to want to return to the wholesale price of electricity wiil vary over the time of day or are you suggesting that your new nuclear plants, because they apparently never break down, will bring to life the nuclear zombie of "too cheap to meter" and you are not going to charge for the energy.
Not sure where you are going here as you actually shot your own argument down. Value in this planet means money and utilities now gain value from interconnectors both in money terms and reliability gains that they make from having backup power in other areas that they can call on in need.
Talk to some operators Rod and see how happy they would be to give up their interconnectors in this return to the submarine where everything was safe and controlled electricity world that you seem to favour.
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Sat, 2010-01-23 20:19 — StephenGloorRodAdams said:
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Sat, 2010-01-23 07:58 — RodAdamsStephenGloor said:
I did you wrote this:
"The difference with electricity is that it does not gain any value by being shared. There is no advantage to electricity that is generated hundreds of miles away compared to electricity generated within just a few feet."
However commercial operators that make money from power put in interconnectors between power systems. You did not answer the question. You stated that there is no advantage to electricity from far away when obviously commercial operators do find an advantage otherwise they would not do it.
So please explain why commercial operators find value in electricity generated far away in direct contradiction to your statement.
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Sat, 2010-01-23 07:46 — StephenGloorRodAdams said:
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Sat, 2010-01-23 03:45 — RodAdamsStephenGloor said:
In that case why are the electricity networks connected now? There must be some value in it or else no-one would do it. If what you said in this statement was even remotely true then the electricity grid would consist of isolated networks with no interconnectors.
Unfortunately reality contradicts this statement. Do you have an explanation for this?
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Sat, 2010-01-23 02:03 — StephenGloorRodAdams said:
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Fri, 2010-01-22 21:26 — RodAdamsStephenGloor said:
No you can't however people with more vision see it differently. When you sent your first email in 1985 there mainframes where the dominant computing environment and PCs were toys. I guess the idea of connecting them seemed outlandish then however you and I are using the emergent capability of the Internet called blogging. Back in 1985 no-one could have predicted Twitter or blogs as a consequence of connecting a whole heap of toys together.
The point is despite your desire to return to an easier age the future is with connecting and sharing information so new behaviours can emerge in the grid.
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Fri, 2010-01-22 20:21 — StephenGloorSteveRay said:
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Fri, 2010-01-22 14:15 — SteveRayPost new comment