One of the myths which we have to contend with as we create the post carbon era is the myth that no single energy source will be so scalable as to be extremely helpful in solving the post carbon energy problem. The post carbon energy problem is the replacement of fossil fuels as energy sources with carbon free environmentally safe energy technology.
I first came across this myth in 2007 at a time when I was evaluating several advanced nuclear technologies that had potential for offering a major contribution in solving the global post carbon energy problem. I looked at the system being developed in India and noted that it was quite complex. Although the end product would be small reactors that would breed Thorium producing U-233 a very attractive reactor fuel. Along the way the Indian system sought to utilize liquid metal reactors in order to breed both Plutonium and U-233 also to be used in more nuclear power plants. I felt the Indian system was too complex and likely to have problems.
Another technology that attracted my attention was the Pebble Bed Reactor. The Pebble Bed Reactor was another Thorium breeding technology. It was first researched in Oak Ridge, TN just after WWII. Later Pebble Bed prototype research was conducted in Germany. The Germans abandoned this technology in the wake of the Chernobyl nuclear accident, but South Africa and China continued to research it. Eventually South Africa also abandoned this technology, but China, as far as I know, continues their Pebble Bed Reactor research. In addition to the Pebble Bed Reactor and the two major reactor designs contemplated by the Indians, an Oak Ridge technology, the Molten Salt Reactor, attracted my interest.
By the late 1960s, Molten Salt research technology had reached the point at which commercial Molten Salt Reactors were feasible although their full usefulness was not apparent at the time. Government bureaucrats reviewed potential nuclear technologies and mistakenly came to the conclusion that two technologies, Liquid Sodium Fast Breeder Reactors and Pressurized Light Water Reactors, represented mature technologies while the Molten Salt Reactor did not. These conclusions were erroneous because the safety of light water reactors had not been properly attended to during the Nixon administration and a huge uproar pitting bureaucrats and scientists had taken place in Congress. The bureaucrats insisted that light water reactor technology of the early 70s was safe enough. The government scientists insisted that it was not. The Nixon administration had selected liquid metal breeder technology for a new generation of reactors, however, this choice turned out to be a major mistake because billions of dollars were spent on it during the 1970s and 80s without a single successful commercial prototype being built.
The Molten Salt Reactor which appeared very promising was not given an opportunity to demonstrate that it had unique capacities which would move the nuclear age forward.
We have, at present, many useful nuclear technological ideas that could help with carbon technology replacement. The best of them would use advanced forms of nuclear power. Small reactors can be constructed in factories. By increasing the number of reactors manufactured in the factory, costs can be lowered. Small reactors can be housed in caves or mines or in underground silos that can protect reactors from aircraft and other forms of terrorism. Power reactors can be built at old coal fired steam plant sites thus replacing dirty coal with clean nuclear power. All of these would tend to lower the cost of nuclear generated electricity.
Factory produced small reactors can be build in large numbers over relatively short periods of time. By increasing the number of factory built small reactors, we lower the cost of individual units and thus decreasing the amount of time it would take to replace carbon technology in electrical generation with nuclear generated electricity. There are a significant number of different nuclear technologies that can be build in large numbers quickly. Since we lack evidence that would help us to determine which of them is the best, we ought to pick out several as most promising and move forward with them quickly.
China has given us an example of this. The Chinese have built a prototype of a small Pebble Bed Reactor and are spending several hundred million dollars a year to develop Molten Salt Reactors as well as Liquid Sodium Breeder Reactors.
Alvin Weinberg, the godfather of the Molten Salt Reactor, is largely ignored in the United States, but his reputation is growing in China and in the United Kingdom. I personally believe that Molten Salt Reactors represent the most scalable nuclear technology for the future and that it has the potential to provide many of our needs including the need to fulfill global electrical demand. Of course I do not have anything like conclusive evidence to back this up and therefore we need alternative technologies in case I am mistaken. Fortunately, as I have pointed out, many alternatives are available. We should not to putting all of our eggs in a single basket. Even if we have a single basket that has a high probability of success, we should still think about our fall back positions. People who say no one technology can solve our energy problems ought to come forward and show, rather than repeat energy myths, how technologies such Molten Salt Reactors and Liquid Sodium Reactors cannot solve energy problems.
Post-Carbon Future: Nuclear Energy and Scalability
Authored by:
Charles Barton
I am a retired counselor. My father was a nuclear scientist and I have had a life long interest in and fascination with his work.Other Posts by Charles Barton
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Robert Hargraves says:
Author Charles Barton was an early advocate of the liquid fluoride thorium reactor (LFTR), sharing postings with Kirk Sorensen, who is running Flibe Energy with the goal of actually building LFTRs. Information about the social benefits and the technology is presented in a new book, THORIUM: energy cheaper than coal, described at http://www.thoriumenergycheaperthancoal.com
Ivor O'Connor says:
Well fortunately reality teaches us differently. Renewables are capable and cheaper than nuclear. Even in China where they don't give a darn about anything but price and performance wind energy has shunted to the side nuclear power. Wind is now producing more power than nuclear in China and in another 10 years will probably out produce coal. Same thing will be happening here as soon as big energy monopolies can no longer buy out the politicians.
Kind of reminds me of big mainframes and their adherents. Little toy hardware would never replace big iron according to them. Well reality has a way of happening...
James Hopf says:
As for renewables being cheaper than nuclear - what Nathan said. Wind might by slightly cheaper in many places, but intermittent kW-hrs are far less valuable than steady, reliable kW-hrs. After adding in the costs of fossil backup and required grid upgrades, wind is likely more expensive. It certainly would be if one tried to get more than ~15-20% of overal power from it, as the effects of intermittentcy escalate.
More wind in China than coal in 10 years? Are you joking?
As for China, no, they are not installing more wind generation than nuclear. Ivor is clearly (and deliberately?) making the capacity factor error, and just going by rated capacity. Wind generates, on average, 25-33% of rated capacity over the year, whereas nuclear is closer to 90%. Nuclear is China's main focus in terms of non-emitting generation.
Ivor O'Connor says:
No capacity factor error. No stopping at 15-20% either. Wind is just clearly far superior economically and environmentally. China produced 2% more energy via wind than nuclear last year. Furthermore it is likely if they keep growing at their 80% rate per year they will produce more power via wind than they do with coal. China estimates they have twelve times the wind needed to supply all their current energy needs. I suspect they'll over build using HVDC lines to supply their entire country with whatever wind might be blowing in some subsection of the country. The excess energy they'll probably convert to hydrogen or in some other way manage to save. It is all about economics. If nuclear were economical it would be used...
From http://www.investorideas.com/news/2013/renewable-energy/02193.asp:
"February 19, 2013 (Investorideas.com renewable energy newswire) Wind has overtaken nuclear as an electricity source in China . In 2012, wind farms generated 2 percent more electricity than nuclear power plants did, a gap that will likely widen dramatically over the next few years as wind surges ahead. Since 2007, nuclear power generation has risen by 10 percent annually, compared with wind's explosive growth of 80 percent per year."
James Hopf says:
Based on current projections of ~70-90 GW of nuclear and ~200 GW of wind by 2020, nuclear will provide more annual generation at that time, given the difference in capacity factor.
As time goes on, the pace of nuclear development will accelerate. China's longer-term plans for nuclear are even greater, with plans for ~200 GW by ~2030, and as much as 1000 GW by 2050. Wind, on the other hand will hit a wall (slow down) as it approaches 15-20% of overall generation. It is simply not practical, or remotely economic, to get much more than that fraction from an intermittent source, as much as you'd like to wish away that very real limitation. Nuclear does not have such limitations, however (see France).
Ivor O'Connor says:
Those *WERE* the hopeful 2020 projections for nuclear in China about five years back. Following the French lead. They then realized there were other more economical and safe options the French didn't have in the 1970s. Perhaps in another five years the Chinese will change their mind again. However if the Chinese are right and they can produce all of their power with wind and solar who are we to tell them they can't? Just last week you thought they were producing more actual power with nuclear than wind. Things are changing very quickly.
Nathan Wilson says:
"Renewables are capable and cheaper than nuclear."
Not exactly. Wind power is cheaper than nuclear, but only in the central plains states (in the US), and only if energy storage is not used. No energy storage means that dispatchable energy sources (i.e. fossil fuel) must provide the majority of grid power. Wind power cost have bottomed-out, and are now drifting up with the cost of concrete and steel. Solar costs are falling, but are still much higher than wind and nuclear. Grid scale energy storage costs have not dropped at all; pumped-hydro is still cheapest but is still hopelessly expensive.
We are two decades into the renewables boom, and still, there are no example anywhere in the world that contradict my claim that "wind is only good for 20-30% of the total". On the other hand, France gets 75% of its electricity from nuclear.
Colin Megson says:
To David Newell:
For every individual who cares a little bit about the future of the human race and the planet, there are 10,000 individuals who don't give a you-know-what where the energy comes from as long as it's there 24/7/365. Why else do you think we commit 2 million people a year to premature deaths, from our addiction to burning fossil fuels.
The fortunate ¼ of us who now use ¾ of the energy produced are already witnessing the other ¾ of the population striving for our standard of living. By 2050, when there are 10 billion of us, the fight will be on for energy security and resources. We will need 3 or 4 times the amount of energy being used now, for international peace and stability. In this world, you can forget the irritating white noise of the renewables lobby; all they are doing right now is delaying the introduction of the only technology with the answer.
Arithmetic done on the back of a fag-packet proves that the technology of the breeder reactor can provide an energy-rich future for 10 billion people, for all of time - from inexhaustible uranium and thorium fuel sources.
If or when the lights start to stutter, anti-nuclear sentiment will evapourate and that apathetic, vast majority, who just want energy on demand, will be screaming for their local Small Modular Breeder Reactor.
To the politicians, charged with getting energy planning right, for only 2 or 3 decades ahead, the message should be clear: "It's the Energy-Security, stupid"!
John Miller says:
Charles, nuclear power will very likely be a significant part of the ultimate solution to replacing fossil fuels. Its major advantage is that existing baseload coal power can be directly replaced by nuclear power and intermediate-peaking natural gas power can conceivable also be replaced by developing associated new industrial scale heat-power storage technologies. Its obvious weakness has been high cost and the need for further technology developments. If the world and the U.S. are serious about eventually developing full replacements for all fossil fuels, some form of nuclear power will be required unless amazingly new breakthroughs are made in near-future electric power storage, which is needed to facilitate greater penetration of variable wind, solar and non-reservoir hydropower.
A truly successful ‘all-of-the-above’ Government energy policy should definitely include some form of advanced breeder reactors R&D and possibly demonstration plants. Similar to fossil fuels, the supply of world fissionable fuels is finite and limited. Thorium has the advantage of much greater apparent world reserves-supply vs. uranium. What you probably understand very well is that breeder reactor technologies are only the source of heat and the use of molten salts, molten metal’s, etc. is based on cooling-heat transfer media technologies. In all cases, much further development and demonstration plants are needed to identify and solve all the real and potential problems associated with various breeder reactor designs and cooling-heat transfer media’s. The power generation bottom cycles are well developed (steam generation, turbines and power generators) and only await a source of non-fossil fuel steam boiler heat.
The U.S. has historically been the world’s leader in developing most technologies. Our political leaders, scientists and citizens should be concerned and probably embarrassed that we are apparently surrendering this technology development leadership to Developing countries such as China.
David Newell says:
Well, I would tend to disagree with this asessment, as the problematic realities of long term storage and toxic by products contends with the certitude of what our present path is, and nuclear reactors could provide a "bridge" to a future world where perhaps (if we are lucky) the population of the earth will be perhaps 3% to 5% of the current.
We humans are real good at subdividing complexity into discreet combinations and analyzing the hell out of them and drawing fantastic projections of what the future will look like.....
And then doing "What We Want".
All these "What We Want's" have addded up to "What we DON'T Want", which is a "dead planet" trend: Our job is to figure out "what the Earth Wants", because "That's what we REALLY want".
James Hopf says:
Nuclear's waste stream, whose volume is a million times smaller than that of other industries and energy sources (e.g., fossil fuels) poses a far lower risk to distant future generations than does the wastes/toxins from those other energy sources/industries. It is the only industry that is required to demonstrate that its wastes will be contained for as long as they remain hazardsous.
Then again, I don't know why I'm even bothering to argue with someone who says that we will be "lucky" if the world's population shrinks by over 95%.
David Newell says:
Yes Mr. Hopf: if we are lucky, perhaps "we" (humans) will survive with a few hundred million left:
as for your position of not knowing why you would stoop to discourse with one as ?? uninformed?? as I, it could be that you did not read my intent, or did not bother to parse what was stated.
for instance, we are in agreement about the relative hazards of nuclear waste as compared to the poisoning of the atmosphere currently ongoing.
And if you do not realize that the entire biosphere is under risk of death arising from human activities conducted in "the furtherance of civilization" and in "the illusion of separation" from the Earth, then you fail to appreciate the reality which confronts you. And me. And all biota whatsoever that cannot deal with temperatures in the 500C + range.
Because THAT, my friend, is a definite possibility.
Warmly,
David Newell
Nathan Wilson says:
...problematic realities of long term storage..."
This is a frequent complaint of non-technical opponents of nuclear power, but I've never heard of a geologist that was worried. They all say that the nuclear waste we have buried at WIPP (the Waste Isolation Pilot Plant, in New Mexico, which is putting military nuclear waste in a 125 million year old salt formation) is essentially perfectly stored. Yucca mountain was expected to leak gradually over 100,000 years, but not enough to cause any hazards to humans or nature.
"...the [future] population of the earth will be perhaps 3% to 5% of the current."
That's the real problem with renewables isn't it. They just don't make sense in a densely populated world. No such problem with nuclear. We can never run out of uranium (for a nuclear society, earth's entire crust contains more energy potential per ton than coal!). The amount of land required for nuclear power (power plants, mines, waste disposal) for a given population is tiny compared to the land required to grow food.
"what the Earth Wants"
Remember, only people are afraid of radiation. Only animals with long healthy lives and no predation are vulnerable to cancer, and only very large does of radiation cause cancer. The earth is naturally radioactive, so in the long run, nothing we do will change that.
David Newell says:
Mr. Wilson :
I am a proponent of nuclear power. However, review of the "Hanford" superfund status may provide a basis for support of my statement that there ARE problematic realities attendent to nuclear operations.
The carrying capacity of the Earth has been exceeded, and a correction to that imbalance is beginning to occur.
Saying "what the Earth wants" is a silly way of implying that it is conscious, as WE are conscious.
We ARE conscious aren't we? Are we sentiently self-aware of being conscious? Well, uh, are we conscious of being "one with the Earth", or do we continue down the path of the great "ME, MY, and MINE" trail, which is killing everything?
Yes, "what the earth wants" is the same thing as "what you want", as there is no separation, except in illusion.
It's not true because I say so.
It's true because it's true.
Out.
Max Kennedy says:
Nuclear, of all ilks, has proven to be a) exceptionally expensive b) unsafe c) produce highly toxic long lived byproducts d) consume tremendous amounts of energy in their production. To make a blanket statement that this 1 technology can "solve our energy problems" is to create yet another MYTH! Nuclear, with the possible exception of fusion in the future, is not a serious consideration , nor should it be.
James Hopf says:
What a load of comically untrue statements. You really need to start getting your information from more credible sites.
That nuclear is "unsafe" is demonstrably false. Studies show it to be the safest of all energy sources:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2012/06/10/energys-deathprint-a-price-always-paid/
Fossil fuel power generation causes hundreds of thousands of deaths each year (~1000 every single day) and is a leading cause of global warming, whereas non-Soviet nuclear generation (even including Fukushima) has caused no deaths and has had no measurable impact on public health. It also has negligible global warming impact.
As I posted above, nuclear's waste stream poses smaller very-long term risks to future populations than many, if not most, other industrial waste streams. We just don't seem to care about any of those other waste streams, for some inexplicable reason.
Nuclear's energy inputs are miniscule (a percent or so of output, a nuclear plant "pays off" any energy inputs in a matter of months, and then lasts 60 years). Renewables are worse in this regard. If you want to bring up concrete and steel, sources like solar and wind require over 20 times as much concrete and steel as nuclear (not to mention over 100 times the land area).
http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf11.html
(note: gaseous diffusion enrichment will not continue much longer)
As for cost, nuclear remains cheaper than most renewables, and you can only do so much (~20%) with intermittent sources anyway. It's unclear that any renewables are cheaper, after fossil back up and grid costs are fully counted. Nuclear is only more expensive than fossil fuels because their massive external costs are not counted (especially coal). They get to just dump their wastes directly into the environment, and do so for free, while nuclear is required to go to the ends of the earth to avoid even a tiny chance of a release, and is required to demonstrate confinement of its wastes for as long as they remain hazardous.
The only source that may challenge nuclear in terms of overall (internal + external) cost is natural gas, but that's only if gas costs don't go up significantly in the future (i.e., if the "natural gas miracle" continues indefinitely). Don't count on it........ I give multiple reasons why gas costs will soon go up, here:
http://ansnuclearcafe.org/2013/02/21/potential-nuclear-plant-closures/
Max Kennedy says:
What a load of propogandist BS! Instead of comparing nuclear to fossil fuels compare it to renewables. When was the last time a wind turbine or solar panel irradiated anyone or produced cancer causing wastes that hang around for millenia. Nuclear is so unsafe that governments have to back the development of plants because no sane insurer will even look at providing liability coverage. Stop wearing blinders and wake up to reality. Nuclear is a net negative not a net benefit to society as evidenced by it's being put to the wayside in those parts of the globe that have a little sanity on the subject.
James Hopf says:
As long as fossil fuels are the primary source of power generation in the world, nuclear vs. fossil is the appropriate, pertinent comparison. In the "sane" places you mention (Germany and Japan), nuclear is being replaced by fossil fuels (to some degree in Germany and almost entirely in Japan). Even if one used renewables to replace nuclear, instead of using thosre renewables to replace fossil generation, they've still essentially chosen fossil fuels over nuclear. This is indefensible (and immoral) given the universal scientific consensus that nuclear's public health risks and environmental impacts are tiny compared to fossil fuels. Given this, would you not agree that to the extent renewables (and conservation) are introduced, they should be used to replace fossil fuels, as opposed to nuclear?
Yes, solar and wind do involve long-lasting toxic materials/wastes. The fabrication process for solar cells invoves toxic material, and the cells themselves contain (everlasting) toxic elements such as asenic, telluride, etc.... Rare earth elements are also used in wind. It is not at all clear that the very long term risks/impacts from these waste streams are less than that of the nuclear waste stream. (Nobody has bothered to study it.) The waste stream volume is certainly vastly larger.
Nuclear's impact has been profoundly positive. It has displaced fossil fuels (mainly coal), not renewables. The coal it has replaced would have caused on the order of 100,000 deaths ANNUALLY, and would have been a massive source of CO2 emissions. Meanwhile, (non-Soviet) nuclear's impact has been one significant accident that has caused no deaths and is projected to have no measurable health impact.
Given its intermittentcy limitations, non-hydro renewables will only make up a fraction of overall generation (~25%, tops). For the rest, it will be fossil fuels or nuclear, and from an environmental perspective, the choice couldn't be more clear.
Nathan Wilson says:
Contrary to your claim, the US DOE says here http://www.eia.gov/forecasts/aeo/electricity_generation.cfm that nuclear is actually amoung the cheaper sources of power, it is certainly a bargain for non-CO2-emitting power (note the prices shown for sun and wind do not include enegy storage, which is very expensive and is required when fossil fuel is not the majority of the supply):
- Wind, onshore: $0.096/kWh
- Geothermal: $0.098/kWh
- nuclear: $0.111/kWh
- biomass: $0.115/kWh
- solar PV: $0.153/kWh
- solar thermal: $0.242/kWh
The notion that nuclear " consume tremendous amounts of energy in their production" is non-sense too, the (energy return)/(energy invested) is just fine, matching wind and beating solar PV.
Nuclear safety is also excellent, as discussed here: http://theenergycollective.com/willem-post/191326/deaths-nuclear-energy-compared-other-causes The well known accidents at Three Mile Island, Chernobyl, and Fukushima were portrayed by the press as very scary, but in reality only Chernobyl actually resulted in fatalities and that was less severe than even the best year for the coal industry.
John Miller says:
Max, the U.S. Government has funded $ Billions of fusion research over the past 50-60 years. This research has yet to even come close to generating a 'net positive energy value' fusion reaction for a few nanoseconds. After all, how difficult could it be to duplicate the conditions found in the Sun here on earth?
David Newell says:
OK OK you are arguably wrong, but it is an empty argument for humorous intent only..
":<)
"A team of physicists and engineers fired an array of 192 laser beams, focused “in perfect unison,” and created a single pulse of energy that for 23 billionths of a second generated a thousand times more power than the entire United States consumes in a single second. This created 411 trillion watts of power."
=====================
Some of the noises being heard in the arena of nuclear fusion centers around thin-film lithium,
which seems exciting. Interesting to note that the Pons-Fleishman matter also utilized lithim, if i recall.
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